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Hi, I’m Scott Han and I want to welcome you to the Road to a Mass, a podcast from the St. Paul Center, where we take a close look at issues that are related to Sacred Scripture. Tonight I am so grateful for the privilege of interviewing a dear friend, Father Charles Samson, who was ordained a priest for the Archdiocese of St. Louis back in 2013. And we met by having him out here in 2014 for a conference. In fact, we just stepped out of the applied Biblical studies conference where we heard Dr. Ted Street just present a magnificent lecture on prayer. So good. It was so good. But we broke off and came down to our studio in order to have a conversation with you. He serves the faculty at Kenrick Seminary in St. Louis where he teaches New Testament in Biblical archaeology of the Holy Land. And that’s the, that’s the dinger because we had the privilege of publishing a book that he wrote entitled Come and See, a Catholic Guide to the Holy Land, which has become my absolute favorite book for taking people, for preparing them to go and for helping them when they come back and they want to assimilate all the things that they’ve experienced in Gataly, the Dead Sea and Jerusalem. You have your licensure in sacred scripture from the Biblical and Rome. You’ve got a doctorate at the Gregorian in Rome in Biblical theology.

I think you focused on that passage in Matthew 5.Yes. Verse 48. Verse 48. “Be perfect for your Heavenly Father is perfect.” So welcome Father Samson. That’s great to be. God. Thank you for your friendship over the years and the ways that you have looked me into your own ministry and that we can share. I love for scripture and what we know to inspire faith and others. Thank you. Oh,you’re welcome. You know, we have so many scripture scholars here for the, for the conference. We have John Bergsma. We have Michael Dauphinay as well. Andre Villeneuve. I could go down the list. There’s so many others as well. But I always love to just have these close friends get closer and cross-pollinate. Not only academically and intellectually, but also spiritually and apostolically. Amen.

And so I should also mention too that just a couple of months ago in May, you were the chaplain for our Holy Land through the mids. And our oldest son, Michael, Dr. Han, the younger who teaches scripture at Mount St. Mary’s Seminary, brought along not only his wife, Anna, but all seven of their kids. Oh, that was wonderful. That was so wonderful. We got to enjoy most of our meals together with those grandkids. But I would say they not only had their hands full, they had their baskets. I mean, just it was intense to have that many kids, but it was wonderful to have you along with our own son, Father Jeremiah. That was the special treat. Yeah. To have 200 plus people, six buses, but really it was a, an intimate gathering of sorts, especially as we went from Gataly down to Jericho, the Red Dead Sea and then to Jerusalem. So tell me a little bit about your background.

What made it, what motivated you to approach the study of sacred scripture?

I would say that my motivation for scripture study started when I was in high school towards the end of high school. I went to world-eath-day in Cologne, Germany in 2005 as a new seminarian.And I did not know any other language than English. I had studied Spanish in high school, but never too proficiency. And when I went to world-eath-day, I could not interact with the people from the various flags of the world. And so I felt like there was an obstacle between me and the universal church. So I developed a passion and an interest in studying languages. Good for you.

I mean, the Tower of Babel is the most underrated catastrophe in all of salvation history. I would agree with that. We see resonance everywhere. But totally that began my interest in modern but also ancient languages. And I started studying Greek and then did Latin and then eventually was sent to Rome to do further studies where I was able to do Hebrew. And I remember my first summer job was working for my dad who was a scientist at St. Louis U. I was numbering test tubes and cleaning rat cages and spinning solutions. And while the solutions were spinning, I translated the Gospel of Mark and John. And that just is how my interest in the Bible developed. And then eventually over time, my interest in the world of the Bible also developed. So for my seminary studies of theology, I was in Rome at the Pontifical Biblical Institute and instead of doing a semester at in Rome, they offered us the chance to go to Jerusalem for four months, the study of the Hebrew University. There we took a lot of classes on Hebrew history and archaeology. And it was there learning about the Holy Land that I really felt connected and drawn to and with the land. And all the ways that from the Latin word, res, how our faith becomes more real when we see where these events of salvation history took place, it drew my mind and my heart and not only in the positive sense, but also in the end of negative sense too. We had some tour guides who were not Christian and who were very doubtful and negative about every place we went to. And I thought, what a bummer, what a wasted chance for evangelization. So in light of my experiences, I decided I’m going to furnish material that someday I could use to lead seminarians who I will be taking as part of the seminary.

So you knew in advance that the archbishop was preparing you through scripture study to come back and teach seminarians to teach priests.

I just want to state something parenthetically and that is I wish more bishops would prioritize the formation of priests to be mentors to future priests who seminarians, you know, they benefit greatly from lay professors. My oldest son happened to be one of them in Mount St. Mary’s and there are so many others too. But you know, over the years, I have, I’ve had conversations with older priests who had mostly priest professors and they role modeled something besides marriage and family which lay professors can do real well.And likewise prayer and study. But there’s an intellectual component to pastoral ministry.

Absolutely. Not primarily academic, but it is intellectual movement through study of scripture but also reading the fathers and other relevant sources. You not only enrich your ministry, you get to the point where you can impart to other people the very things that we need to have solid doctrine. I agree. Yes indeed. And most of my professors were priests and the one who took us to the holy land was a priest and it was that personal connection that made it very much attractive to me. The Colonel Burke was the one who sent me to Rome because he saw my propensity for ancient languages and said, you study scripture. Okay. He is truly a close friend and a great hero. We’re going to be giving him an award in November at our national gala or annual banquet at the same place center. I’m not surprised to hear that it was him. It was.

He’s also got a gift of practical and deep discernment.

Oh yes. Indeed. So they sent me over there and I knew that that meant I would be teaching at Kenner Glen in seminary and I had heard that our seminary started a holy land pilgrimage program and I was already told by the then director at the time, hey, we’re looking to save money and make this a fitter program for priests. Stay tuned and make sure you do your studies so that you can help take this over. So at his best, I decided to go ahead and go for it and take over that pilgrimage and the first step of that was writing this book.

Thank you. Now what year were you over there for the first time in the holy land as a in 2010?

So three years before your ordination. Correct. Yeah. That’s really good because you’ve been back how many times would you guess the matter?

I’ve been to the holy land ten times. Ten times. Now, I think I’ve been there about 14 times. The last time was with you. It goes back to around 1992 and I wasn’t prepared for what would happen. I was excited and I knew that Jerome called it the fifth gospel because it makes the word of God come alive, both the Old Testament and the New. But I didn’t really anticipate just how hard it would be to take in all of the sites. We had Israeli guides the first time and they were rather skeptical, especially about New Testament events, but they would try to hide it, but they didn’t try that hard. And so I would often take the mic and explain the gospels and explain why this was in fact a reliable tradition. And why the Christians who had been living in the land for so long were reliable sources and that sort of thing.

What was it like for you when you first went to Galilee, if I could ask?

Galilee definitely became right away my favorite place to go because of the sea of Galilee and its environs, even Eremos Hill where the sermon on the mountain took place. No buildings around that green countryside because throughout the millennia pilgrims wanted it to look like what it did in the hills and the water. So that initially just grabbed my attention and really fed my own personal prayer to go up and read Matthew 5 to 7 on that mountain. Galilee was really special. But in particular having the seminarians in my own time staying at a hotel on the water to be able to wake up and see the sunrise and pray with the silence and the peace of that place. Oh, it’s my favorite, I would say it’s my favorite place in the world. It really, really is. I think I would agree. Yeah. No, I remember when I was there and we went to the mount of Beatitudes and we went to where Matthew 5 to 7 on the sermon of the mount was first given. And we had over 200 pilgrims that were sponsored by the university. This is before they had a lot of fences built walls as well. So I was able to stand pretty close to the sea and they were all up on the mount as it were. And they just said, read Matthew 5. And so I went through the Beatitudes and then I continued reading through the rest of the sermon of the mount. It took about 20 minutes or so. And we had 200 plus and the pilgrims were at the very top of the hill. I just assumed they’re not going to hear it. Later they told me they heard it like it was an assembly hall. They heard it like a perfect natural acoustics, you know? Amen.

And again, it just reinforces that sense that the Christians who go back so many centuries really have it right. Exactly. And like you said, the witness of the early Christians and the affability of their work, you know, the thing that strikes me is even in places like the Topka, the multiplication, the fish and the loaves. Christians were willing in the early days to risk open persecution to go touch a rock that they knew Jesus used to feed the disciples. They had such courage to do that. And so when I bring some adherence there, when I go myself, it makes me ask, you know, what’s the simple question of what do I risk for the faith? Have I really risked anything? What is the cost of discipleship? And now when I think about those questions and prayer or hear it in the homily, I think of that rock. Yeah. And I ask God, whatever the early Christians had, I want that kind of courage. So my experience in the Holy Land has always been learning and then praying with what you learn. I’m grateful to God for the Franciscan’s tomb. The custody has been given off in many centuries. And often in the face of some real persecution, whether it’s fears or just subtle, they face forces that we can’t even really understand. I’m sure. You know, besides the Sea of Godly, which is my favorite part of the planet, it is the most peaceful place. You almost pray spontaneously. And also Topka and you have the amount of be attitudes all and you’re like, oh, it’s all walking distance, you know, it might be two or three miles. But it’s striking because you realize that most of Jesus’s three year public ministry was conducted up in Galilee. And I had maps, but I didn’t realize until we drove 70, 80, 90 miles from Tel Aviv, but also from Jerusalem so that the bulk of Jesus public ministry is up north of Samaria, certainly far north of Judea, in Galilee of the nations. And you recognize, okay, this was the, this was the, these were the tribal territories of Zebulin and Oftali. And I mean, they were taken out back in 733 BC. I mean, more than 10 years before a Syria came and wiped out the Samarians as well. And so history comes alive, but I must admit that the most startling experience the first time I was there was at Nazareth when you enter the church and you read that Latin inscription, the word became flesh here. And you’re just silenced and it’s such a sacred silence because you realize, okay, this isn’t just a geographical spot. Yeah. You know, this is where heaven and earth united and kissed the incarnation happened here. Amen.

And to be able to celebrate that with the devotion of the ages, I went in May. I took a group of young adults from my parish and two friends of my myring trees who were both singers. They were a tenor, a soprano and an alto in front of that cave. They sang the angel Gabriel from heaven came, you know, the Christmas tune and oh my gosh, the visuals and the audio like that’s the whole point of that pilgrim is to make it pop and to make it take root. I would agree. And the privilege that the Franciscans have of adding that little word, heek HIC, everywhere on stone in the gospel in the Eucharistic prayer. It’s a special privilege that Rome granted to the Holy lands to focus the attention of pilgrims on the reality of the moment.
I love it. Absolutely love it.

Now, usually when you’re up in Galilee for a few days, it’s never long enough. You then take a trip down to the Dead Sea through Jericho and it’s just, it’s traumatizing because Galilee is so beautiful. And then when you get down to Jericho in the Dead Sea, it is so, it’s the Judean desert. It’s also the lowest spot on earth. It’s where nothing is alive in the Dead Sea because of the saline concentration and all of that.

What was it like for you the first time or the most recent?

Going down to the Dead Sea was definitely eye-opening. Passing through Jericho itself was remarkable because in the midst of Barra Rock, for as far as the eye can see, there is this oasis that brings out from the water that gushes out under the settlement of Jericho and it’s pretty amazing just to reread the Gospel of Mark and the different encounters that Jesus had there. I would say the richness of the city of palms and the datres and the balsam, which is native to that region, pales in comparison like to the richness of Barnum Ace and the faith that he and the locals express, Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me and I’d given all away was the keyest too. So that was the contrast that was illustrative for me, the origin of the area and the richness of the soasis, just like the origin of the faith of the locals who were scoffing at the blind man’s and he persevered and pushed through. Right.

That definitely was struck me. Also the dates from the datres and Jericho, those dates are so good. And not to forget the archaeological site too where the city of Jericho was originally and Kathleen Kenyon back in the first part of the 20th century began or continued the excavations that have really continued to the present day and while there can’t be any archaeological proof of the the walls of Jericho coming down, nevertheless we know that is the oldest city on earth that we need a record of and that it has been ruined and rebuilt on many occasions as you see with the various levels of the strata. But it’s also striking because you recognize that nothing that you would dig up has ever really contradicted the testimony of the word of God. Amen.

The book of Joshua. Exactly. And she herself in a really brilliantly written opinion for the newspaper in Israel wrote a very harmonious account of even if there is a gap in the inhabitation era of Jericho in the 14th century, the 12th century, whichever it still means that people were living there just wasn’t as centralized a government as we might think. So even already besides the politics, there definitely are ways of reading science and faith in unison and in harmony. And that’s why I love archaeologies because it shows that ability to work together. That’s right. I mean, faith and reason are meant for one another, but there really is a sense in which archaeology as a science and at the same time are religious tradition that we do share with Jews as far as the destruction of Jericho is concerned. It really is a convergence indeed. The Dead Sea was for me a real breakthrough because I had been reading the Dead Sea scrolls. I knew that since the late 40s, this was the most significant archaeological dig, not just the scroll of Isaiah, but all of these examples of, well, we used to kind of assume that Paul was much more Hellenistic than Hebrew.He was a Hebrew when he was Saul, the Pharisee. And then he converts to something else and Hellenizes this early religion of Jesus.

In the Dead Sea scrolls, I mean, nothing could be more pure or purely Jewish than we’ll call them the Essenes. And the scrolls show us that so many of the things that we thought were peculiar to the New Testament were actually found in the Essenes documents, the community practice of that kind of thing, including celibacy, the notion of a priest known as Melchizedek, the New Covenant, Abolutions, Baptismal Rights. And I could go on and on like Dr. John Bergman has done his research, Jesus in the Dead Sea scrolls. But I was really pleased when I saw that there was a section in your guide, come and see on the Dead Sea.

Absolutely. It’s a place that is a good area for a trip to transform a trip from tourism to pilgrimage. And that’s one of the goals of the, of going there because of things that you mentioned, especially that give us access to the life of early Judaism of Jesus’ day, absolutely. I mean, I’ve always been impressed by in your work and the talks that you give, how you’re always looking for hints of the sacraments wherever we can find them. And you see it even at Kumarang. You see that they had their communal mickvays, their ritual badminton. And by and large, the ones that they found either have three or seven steps. And those numbers obviously being very biblically significant reflected even in early baptistries that we found. The baptistry on the Mount of Olives at the Pudder Nostra Church, I think, has seven steps. Whereas the one that we see in Top Gun Galilee has three. So the biblical imagery carries over.

Yeah.I mean, plus you have the burial areas and the digs that have been done to show that this overwhelming majority are men. And so the idea that the Essens, we know from Josephus and from Fylo and others that even their opponents revered them because I mean, they were so austere, so prayerful, so deeply spiritual, unlike the Pharisees, the Sadducees who took, you know, a much more public role in contentious leadership and so on. But you have clear signs of what we would describe as consecrated celibacy. I’m still there in that community. And I got to can’t recommend highly enough your book come and see a Catholic guide at Holy Land, but also John Bergsmitz book, Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now we’ve waited to get to Jerusalem. But what I’d like to do now is just press pause as it were and end this first episode by wrapping up and emphasizing the fact that do you think is valuable for people clergy or laity to think seriously and begin planning to make a pilgrimage to the Holy Land? 110%. Absolutely.

It is worth the investment. It is an investment in time and also in finances. But your life of faith will never be the same. Jesus will never be the same to you. Things really do when they say come alive. It’s not a cliche. There’s an activity and a vivacity about it that is so, so real and apparent. And it does take a little bit of planning, but fortunately there are agencies and pilgrimage groups that can help you out. I’ve been super satisfied and very grateful for 206 tours that always take your pilgrimages in mind with my seminary. So to prepare for a pilgrimage, you don’t have to take care of all the logistics and the practicals. Show up, right? And insert yourself and be prepared. Amen.

I mean, 206 tours is our favorite every day we have mass. We have set aside time for prayer. We only use Christian typically Catholic guides who are born and raised in Jerusalem or sometimes
in Nazareth, but for them to share with our fellow pilgrims. And what a difference it is since you already made an illusion of the distinction between tourists on the one hand and pilgrims on the other. I mean, a tourist and a pilgrim might go into the same church and appreciate the color, the history, whatever architecture and that sort of thing. But it’s an entirely different kind of appreciation. And so you might be on air conditioned buses, I hope you are. But at the same time, you’re going to have hardships of walking, you know, gliming and that kind of thing.
And so, you know, look into it to make sure that, you know, in terms of your own health, you’re ready for that. But it doesn’t take an Olympic athlete. But it certainly will transform your spiritual life, how you read sacred scripture, how you hear the Gospels read every single Sunday, you will see the places in your imagination. And I would also say in wrapping up that I really can’t think of a better book for people to read in preparation than your book, Cummins the Catholic Guide of the Holy Land. And then when you get back and you begin to process all that you have seen and heard and done, you know, it’s going to be about 10 days when you begin to realize, wow, I’ve really just begun. And how do I, how do I assimilate this?

Well, actually reading this again, or perhaps for the first time is the best way. You’re a scholar, but this is not written for scholars. This is written for people who are clearly pilgrims first and foremost, much more than tourists. But thank you for being on with me in this first episode. Well, thank you for writing the book. Thank you so much. And for all of your support, especially in promoting it and encouraging me and my scholarship. Thank you. And the final thanks for coming and joining us in the applied biblical studies conference this year. It’s been great to have you back and thank all of you for joining us too. We’re going to be back for a second episode. And I mean, for you, it’ll be a couple of weeks, but for us is going to be a couple of minutes. And so until the next time, the Lord, Richly Bless you and could you give us a blessing for this episode?

Absolutely.You know, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen to your Jesus through the intercession of all the saints, especially of your mother in Saint Joseph. I ask that you abundantly bless all of those who are listening to this episode. Bless those who are about to travel to the Holy Land and those who are on the fence, give them the courage and the prudence to be able to follow your will and hear your voice. You know, my de God bless you, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.

Again, until next time may the Lord, Richly Bless you.

The Road to Ameas podcast is a production of the Saint Paul Center presented by Dr. Scott Hahn. Our production team includes Technical Director Rory Mitrick, producers Olivia Mosher and Joseph Palmer, an associate producer of Lauren Santos. Our mission at the Saint Paul Center is to help you read scripture from the heart of the church. Please subscribe and share the Road to Ameas as well as Mrs. Kimberly Hans podcast Beloved and Blessed and our Daily Mass Reflections podcast Letters From Home.

Dr. Scott Hahn Pilgrimages